Still, to read the comments section for this USA Today article, a scamblogger could be excused for feeling that the message was falling on deaf ears. This article managed to garner more than 600 comments in 20 hours, so there is certainly no lack of interest in the topic. Still, the vast majority of commenters offer some vitriolic variation on a common theme: Boo hoo, serves you right, lawyer scum!
A lot of people are hurting in this recession. Undoubtedly, there are comments from people who have been laid off, furloughed, or are perpetually underemployed. Many are probably grappling with higher education debt while working a low-paying job that doesn’t utilize their degree. It all sounds a lot like the plight of the average law graduate, except that many of these folks hopefully aren’t suffering under $100,000 in debt and the J.D. stain on their resume that law grads are. I’d be inclined to say that “we’re all in this together.”
Sadly, a perusal of the pages and pages of comments on this article reveals otherwise. The newspaper can tell readers all about how law programs amount to three years’ worth of glittery highway robbery that leave their graduates unemployable, but it matters not to many. They’re still lawyers, and therefore evil, malformed human sludge. They all wanted to go to law school so that they could get $160k starting salaries, live the “models and bottles” lifestyle, and wake up every morning putting their foot on the neck of the little guy, grinning all the while. That sure sounds like me, and all the other law students I know! These commenters must be right…to a man, we all deserve the misery, crushing debt, and perpetual unemployment. It is our lot in life.
Let’s look at some of the most highly-rated comments, as recommended by other readers:
Mark Doiron (6 friends, send message) wrote: 1d 3h ago
Not enough jobs for lawyers? I have a difficult time finding any bit of sympathy for them. Try a career that actually produces something that benefits society--engineering, teaching, etc. --mark d.
drgary (101 friends, send message) wrote: 1d 1h ago
Lawyers do not produce anything!! They merely usurp from the nations gross domestic production!!!
The attorneys not only have destroyed the fabric of US society.....................they have increased the cost of doing business in the US............which has caused the US to no longer be competitve in world markets as it relates to the production of goods and services!!!
bruceton (0 friends, send message) wrote: 1d 3h ago
Wow, these kids simply have not been paying attention. Colleges are there to take your money. There is no promise of a job, no refunds, sorry. As I have said in the past, it's a perfect scam. Ok, maybe scam is not the right word, I suppose you do learn something...like not to believe anything anyone tells you!
lunchtimereader (0 friends, send message) wrote: 23h 12m ago
So they feel entitled to a guaranteed high paying job once they graduate?
Nothing is guaranteed in life no matter what u study in college. That's just the way it is. Everyone rolls the dice when u major in something, and graduate from that program.
Of course the school will fluff up your ego when u to sign up for law school. They will paint u a pretty picture of BMWs, nice homes, wealth, influence, etc, etc. Do u expect them to tell u u will be working at McDonald's after u graduate? Of course not.
These kids need to come down from the clouds and live with us mortals. Everybody is hurting and struggling to provide for their families. It's a day to day struggle. Are law graduates exempt from this? They must have thought so.
Welcome to our world.
I did chuckle at this one:
Try2KeepUpWithMe (0 friends, send message) wrote: 23h 39m ago
They wanted to be scammers. Instead, they were scammed themselves.
L.M.A.O.
It is a little disappointing to see so much kneejerk hate for lawyers, as well as so many ignorant comments that show a total misunderstanding of the plight facing so many graduates today. Many bloggers have reflected on the "blame the victim" response that law school administrators, the ABA, and many laypeople give when scammed law grads try to speak up. Some will tell them that it's their fault for not doing enough due diligence, despite the fact that the statistics and data relied on by prospective students in making their decision are widely agreed to be misrepresentations at best, and old fashioned fraud at worst. Others will use the old "lawyers produce nothing, they should have become engineers or factory workers," line. This is particularly rich, as there is no viable fallback in a "productive industry" for young people. Where are the millions of good jobs producing a real product that grads can take? Where is the supposed job security that my young friends with engineering degrees ought to have, when they are laid off every 12-18 months and have to scramble to find some contract position? All that this country has left is a service economy, and even that is being eroded in favor of cheap, offshore labor. These Horatio Alger, "pull yourself up" responses represent a fundamental inability to stick one's graying head outside of their middle-management office and observe the economic carnage all around.
What we're seeing here is yet another example of recalcitrant Boomers who had everything easy in life, who lived through an unnatural period of economic prosperity, plentiful jobs, and easy credit. In my parents' day, you could get a B.A. from any state college, throw a dart, and hit a decent paying job. The standard line of "I did it, it was easy, everything worked out for me, you youngsters are just lazy and afraid of hard work!" just rings hollow. The Boomers who haven't been laid off are quite simply out of touch with the modern higher education complex and hiring market. They won't even begin to question the folly of their worldview until they are truly old and decrepit and their Social Security benefits start to run dry.
But despite all of this negative feedback, at least some truthful comments are shining through:
samjung23 (10 friends, send message) wrote: 1d 7h ago
I did some research on this, thank god, before deciding to go to law school. Talk about being poor, or being poorer. I realized that practically most liberal arts university majors I knew went to law school, if their daddy couldn't get them a job, or if they played sports and had connections to good jobs. I said, if I couldn't get a job with my liberal arts degree, what's the point of paying a ton of money to law school and basically have the same terrible chances?
So yeah, I'm still screwed, but at least I'm not majorly in debt AND unemployed. I have an ok bit job right now, but I really am willing to get out of Michigan and at least get something that will pay a living wage. I'm even willing to leave the States. I don't think the people are intelligent enough to understand how an economy operates and help it recover. This country is in SERIOUS problems.
vandy grad (0 friends, send message) wrote: 10h 57m ago
I graduated 5 years ago from Vanderbilt law school with 160K in student loan debt. I applied to countless attorney and non-attorney jobs (secretary, retail, etc.) without so much as an interview. I was told that I was "underqualified" for attorney jobs because I didn't have 10+ years of experience and "overqualified" for non-attorney jobs because I had a law degree. It was immensly frustrating to have gone to law school for three years and incure this amount of debt to find out I was virtually unemployable.
I was 21 years old when I decided to attend law school and I fell for everyone of Vanderbilt's deceptive statements and statistics. 99% employment six months after graduation, we only accept 20% of all applicants so you are special, average starting salaries of $100K+, etc. I pay my student loan payment each month so I take responsibility for my poor decision; however, I don't think holding 21 year olds accountable for the decision to attend law school is the answer. The law school administrators and professors should be held accountable. After all, they are the ones lining their pockets by ripping off young twenty somethings as outlined above. The funny thing is they do this with our tax dollars (via federal student loans). There is absolutely no need for any more lawyers in the country. Half the schools could just disappear and no one but the law schools themselves would know or care. This is becoming an increasing problem here in America, the overeducated and underemployed!
barnzai (0 friends, send message) wrote: 1d 10h ago
If you're smart enough to graduate from law school, you're smart enough to realize you probably shouldn't have.
In the end, there is more value than not in having articles like this in the public sphere, despite the largely negative online feedback. The sense I get from most scambloggers is that no one is doing this to try and generate sympathy, as many of the commenters seem to think. Our collective sense of purpose is to dissuade as many prospective law students as possible from going to law school. With articles like these, hopefully some attentive young people will notice the uptick in news pieces about the horrible job market for law grads and reassess their course in life.
As for the folks who are themselves suffering, but are quick to lash out at young people who were taken for a ride and are now drowning in debt, I don’t know what to say. At a time when the nation at large is roiling with record unemployment, a horrible recession, and an entire generation of young people who are being shut out of the labor market and the associated lifestyle they were raised to aspire to, those who will plug their ears and scream petty insults at the "whiners" are particularly repulsive. So many millions of people have been taken for a ride in our glitzy modern economy, be they mortgage borrowers, small business owners, or young students who were hoping to improve their lives via education. All of these people were sold a fraudulent bill of goods and are now left holding the heavy, debt-laden bag. How bad do things have to get before some people care? Will we all eventually have to see our pensions and 401(k)s reduced to nothing, our home values plummet, our long-term underemployment stretch into perpetuity? At what point can we recognize the symptoms plaguing one group of people, like underwater student loan borrowers, as indicative of larger problems affecting the country as a whole?
My first reaction was to think back to a modification of a quote that our friend and former scamblogger Angry Future Expat posted in his farewell entry. I sort of hesitate to use it, because while the situation of millions of college and law grads who have been sold out and have no reasonable chance at getting a decent job and advancing in life is dire, we aren’t being rounded up and put into camps. Still, perhaps it is appropriate:
With apologies to Pastor Martin Niemöller:
THEY CAME FIRST for the Subprime Borrowers,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Subprime Borrower.
THEN THEY CAME for the unemployed,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t unemployed.
THEN THEY CAME for the failed small business owners,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a failed small business owner.
THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.
Yep, Joe/Jane Sixpack is gung ho to jump on the lawyer hate bandwagon. That is, until their spouse walks out on them and they need a lawyer to help with their divorce - AND FAST. Then, they want you to work for them for a pittance AND want to be able to call you at home at all hours of the day/night to tell you what their ex's new girl/boyfriend is telling the kids about them AND perform miracles on their shitty case that they did much to mess up anyway. Such is the life of a solo lawyer - and that's why I'm not one anymore.
ReplyDeleteI read some of the ignorant comments on that article. These people don't realize that by paying our student loans, we ARE taking responsibility for our actions - and for the misrepresentation and fraud of the law schools. Yeah, it's a hell of a moral.
ReplyDeleteI graduated from law school back in the 1980s--during ANOTHER terrible recession. Truth be told, I had no burning desire to be an atty but--like many of my fellow college grads who could not find a decent job to save our lives--I enrolled in law school hoping to delay UE or underemployment a few years until the economy improved. Bad idea.
ReplyDeleteBy the time I graduated, saddled with a big debt, I had to compete with THOUSANDS of other newly-minted JDs in the DC/MD/VA area. Luckily, after a year, I found a non-atty job on Capitol Hill and didn't even bother with the bar because
my fellow JD grads were working as waiters, in bookstores; one even scooping ice cream at Baskin-Robbins while studying for the bar. After my Congressman boss retired, I found a "make-work" job with a federal agency for a few years until I was fired on a whim by a Republican appointee beotch merely because she didn't like my political affiliation (Democrat) and was busy purging the agency of so-called
"liberals" during the Reagan era.
I eventually took and passed the bar, but I STILL could not find a decent atty job because, by then: 1) most mid-sized and large firms--like corporations-- were busy outsourcing all the associate jobs to India or China; and 2) the number of law schools in the country virtually doubled, dramatically increasing competition for
scarce jobs.
The hard reality is, unless you have connections or are fortunate enough to graduate from an Ivy League school in top 10% of the class, with Law Review, you will have to settle for low-paying Legal Aid, DA's office, or long-term "temp" work in a document review mill--if you are lucky enough to find it.
Advice to the few souls CONTEMPLATING law school who may read this:
THINK LONG AND HARD BEFORE YOU SADDLE YOURSELF WITH HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS IN DEBT AND WASTE 3 YEARS OF YOUR LIFE. Unless you really have a "burning desire" to become an atty (and 99.9% of law practice is DRUDGERY), don't do it!!! Yes, the framed diploma and ct. admission certificate look pretty on the wall, but it was not worth the anxiety, lifelong debt I incurred.
If I had it to do again, I would have paid attention in grade school math and science classes and become a doctor or followed a true passion, like photography or horticulture.
I graduated from law school back in the 1980s--during ANOTHER terrible recession. Truth be told, I had no burning desire to be an atty but--like many of my fellow college grads who could not find a decent job to save our lives--I enrolled in law school hoping to delay UE or underemployment a few years until the economy improved. Bad idea.
ReplyDeleteBy the time I graduated, saddled with a big debt, I had to compete with THOUSANDS of other newly-minted JDs in the DC/MD/VA area. Luckily, after a year, I found a non-atty job on Capitol Hill and didn't even bother with the bar because
my fellow JD grads were working as waiters, in bookstores; one even scooping ice cream at Baskin-Robbins while studying for the bar. After my Congressman boss retired, I found a "make-work" job with a federal agency for a few years.
I eventually took and passed the bar, but I STILL could not find a decent atty job because, by then: 1) most mid-sized and large firms--like corporations-- were busy outsourcing all the associate jobs to India or China; and 2) the number of law schools in the country virtually doubled, dramatically increasing competition for
scarce jobs.
The hard reality is, unless you have connections or are fortunate enough to graduate from an Ivy League school in top 10% of the class, with Law Review, you will have to settle for low-paying Legal Aid, DA's office, or long-term "temp" work in a document review mill--if you are lucky enough to find it.
Advice to the few souls CONTEMPLATING law school who may read this:
THINK LONG AND HARD BEFORE YOU SADDLE YOURSELF WITH HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS IN DEBT AND WASTE 3 YEARS OF YOUR LIFE. Unless you really have a "burning desire" to become an atty, don't do it!!! 99.9% of law practice is DRUDGERY; if you don't believe me, sneak into any CLE event, look
at older attys' burnedout, bored expressions.
Yes, the framed diploma and ct. admission certificate look pretty on the wall, but it was not worth the anxiety, lifelong debt I incurred.
If I had it to do again, I would have paid attention in grade school math and science classes and become a doctor or pursued a "true passion" regardless of income it promised. There is nothing worse than feeling you wasted your life because of social or economic pressure.
There's a bit of a disconnect between the notions that LS Deans are scamming douches and "I went to LS b/c I didn't know what I wanted to do w/ my life."
ReplyDeleteWhile the former certainly needs to be reformed, the latter will still occur even when there is full disclosure regarding employment stats.
Young people want to become lawyers b/c they believe that entering into law will define their socio-economic class. Even when that myth is exposed it will not deter the hordes of upper-middle class suburban kids from applying.
I agree though that this group of students carrying huge loans requires assistance. Some sort of student loan refinancing bailout will be necessary.
I think many of the comments from "Joe Sixpack" types are actually expressing Schadenfreude at people who are trying to do something positive for themselves.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's pretty much the reception you will get from civilians--lawyer jokes and outright hostility, that is--UNTIL THEIR KID IS PICKED UP FOR DUI. Then, all hell breaks loose. They want the most aggressive, experienced and knowledgeable attorney they can find to represent "their boy", who is, after all, a wonderful child who would never do such a thing, never, and is about to lose a job over it, among other things.
ReplyDeleteYup, that's the public.
That's why I could not read the comments. It gets so frustrating to see all the venom. I am a first generation college grad who thought going to law school would get me a "better life." Ha! AS IF.
ReplyDeleteThat old saying is so true, everyone hates lawyers until they need a good one.
3:21. Yes, just to bolster your post (not that it needed it). I was a 1980's grad, bottom of the class, at what would now be considered a toilet. Seeing as there were ABSOLUTELY NO prospects for me, I had a chance to hop into the skilled trades, where I remain today. I did end up passing the bar (after three tries)and it looks very chic in my den. But that is about it. I really wanted to be a lawyer, too, but I sucked in school. I didn't "catch on" to legal exam-writing until too late--I didn't know at the time, coming from a definitely lower-class, working-class background, that it was "all over" after first year grades came out. I was naive and young, and believed that it would look favorable if I just toughed it out.
ReplyDeleteLittle did I know...
It is all over after first-year grades, kids. Get the hell out if you are not in top shape after 1L, it is that simple, although I would advise NO ONE attend a toilet unless (1) you are a very attractive young lady; (2)you are a well-connected young man or woman, and this includes all of you headed for the "family firm" or who have pre-existing business or legal contacts; or, (3) you are independently wealthy. Outside these categories, stay out of the toilets, or, at least quit after a poor showing 1L, as the JD is a unique rock tied around your neck in the non-legal world. That's the problem with legal "education": not only do the schools woefully prepare you, it is a singularly crippling detriment in the non-legal employment world.
@5:09 - Even if you're a very attractive young lady, you should stay out of the toilets. I've known plenty of very attractive young ladies who came out of law school, even halfway decent to good ones, only to wind up working at Starbuck's. They could've gotten that job without incurring thousands in debt. I'm not sure what being an attractive young lady would do for you besides give you better job opportunities in stripping, being a cocktail waitress, or a hostess in an upscale restaurant after you graduate with your shit degree (the JD) and find you can't get a job in law. I truly believe that "investing" (LOL) in a law degree outside the T3 or so today is a big mistake. I've worked doc review with too many ex-Biglaw associates and grads of top schools. Don't make excuses that "if only" I was young, minority, black, white, Asian, an attractive young girl, etc., etc., it MIGHT have worked for me. Nowadays, it works for VERY few, and mostly for those who are well-connected. And, let's face it, most of those are white men.
ReplyDeleteYes, I am an attractive youngish woman (haha) and I have ZERO connections or prospects. I went to a school just outside the top 100. What a mistake! I am hitting the feds hard but USA jobs feels like flame.
ReplyDeleteRun away 0Ls...run away.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1406822
ReplyDelete@5:09, you make some valid points. This law review article notes that law schools and the ABA want to train students in the ways of the upper class. For those who truly embrace the culture of law school, i.e. manners, snobbery, language, court holdings, archaic procedure, etc. they can excel on law exams. They have "bought into" this disgusting industry. Even those first-generation college grads who do attempt to mimic this drivel come across as "forced". And, hence, they are also ostracized by the supposed "elite". (This is one reason why "diversity" is simply a cover; corporations, schools, government agencies and law firms can then post a few pictures of a few black/brown/yellow faces, and cheer "Look! We VALUE diversity in our workplace!")
In the final analysis, the legal system is a sick joke perpetrated on society by the wealthy. The law was conceived of and designed by the landowners as a way to legitimate/sanction their stranglehold on economic, social and political power. (It was only a matter of time before the rubes figured out that the "divine right of kings" and other religious justifications for gross inequity were ABSOLUTE AND TOTAL BULLCRAP.
You need to stop blaming all Baby Boomers. That's as bad as a Baby Boomer saying a newly minted lawyer is just lazy. I am barely a Baby Boomer and like 3:21 I graduated in the mid-80s in the midst of another bad employment period. I graduated from a top tier school, was on Law Review and in the top 11% of my class and the job I got was alright but not great. I worked for the same firm for just under 20 years and then got cut because my practive area was largely being out sourced and I wasn't a rain maker. If you are not a rain maker you will never be secure in a legal practice and you will never make the kind of salaries people think lawyers make. When anyone mentions that he or she is considering going to law school, I ask that person how they are planning on getting clients. If you are good at sales (which is all that matters in the legal world now), you can make a lot of money selling other things that don't require going in to debt. I am employed now as an in-house attorney at substantially less money, but I am recovering. My parents pushed me to go to law school because they didn't know any better. The real example to look at is how many lawyers children go to law school. Not many. They see what a miserable life it is. The U.S. economy is in trouble. As long as sit around blaming each other, banks will keep us slaves to debt.
ReplyDeleteThose who commented must be Fox News watches. Obviously, they don't know lawyers protect the rights in society. One ignoramous actually quoted Shakespeare --- First kill all the lawyers.
ReplyDeleteThose who are on this site should know and understand what Shakespeare meant.
Furthermore, these buffoons actually believe the only thing lawyers do is sue. These are narrow minded idiots that get the same number votes as the rest of us.
Welcome to the internet. The peanut gallery on the internet lives false lives and loves having a bandwagon mentality.
ReplyDeleteRead the articles on yahoo for a laugh. Make sure to read any of the "Ground Zero mosque" articles or the "Recovery is stalling" articles. Hilarious stuff. These people are retards and most are probably 14 and under. And yes, they do get the same vote as the rest of us, and yes that's what politicians pander to.
Fix the economic problems we have now and actually challenge bank and corporation power? Hell no, let's talk about steroids in baseball or the "Ground Zero mosque" instead, or find some other stupid thing to yell at each other over!
Both parties are the same and all politicians are the same too. It doesn't matter who you elect, your vote is worthless anyway.
We might have had a chance with Perot or Ron Paul but of course they never had a real chance. I'm not entirely sure they could have even done much anyway.
The goal is to keep the people ignorant and focused on anything but what you're actually doing. That's why Rome had a Coliseum. And that same mentality is here now. Lawyers are a great mob target, as are Muslims right now, and "illegals" after that. Just pick random groups and they've all had a turn.
What's been said on this blog is quite true, and I fully support your efforts. However, I believe that unless you come up with a practical solution, you will continue to be disregarded as whiners.
ReplyDeleteHere are my suggestions: (1) expand the message to the broader education scam (what is any degree worth these days?), (2) make student loan repayments contingent on income with the schools (not the taxpayers) taking the loss (this will create an incentive for schools to find reasonable employment for their graduates and/or limit enrollment in "worthless" programs), (3) reverse the offshoring trend through the use of tariffs that punish nations that allow companies to exploit workers or the environment, (4) start suing and revoking licenses/aid for schools that mislead or can't place graduates in suitable employment, (5) allow student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy after a specified time (e.g. 5 years after graduation) or number of unsuccessful legitimate attempts to gain suitable employment (why should you have to pay for something that you can't use and is thus defective?), (6) pass legislation prohibiting employment discrimination based on being educated or “overqualified,” (7) start the printing presses and give every American citizen $1 million (Sure it will cause inflation, but so what? The irresponsible will pay off their debts, and the responsible will gain $1 million to offset the inflation), and (8) if all else fails, let’s find a nation to flee to that actually values us.
@ 2:21AM
ReplyDeleteIt's a good thing you don't run this country.
Hey, I'm a writer for a newspaper trying to get in touch with someone about the scamblog thing, especially as it pertains to the Tri-State Area. Please consider dropping me a line at john@gorenfeld.net.
ReplyDeletep.s. Ha--the CAPTCHA read, "debtr."
Dear Mr. Gorenfeld:
ReplyDeleteIt must be wonderful to be an employed writer.
To use your mind and feel a simple sense of worth for what you do. To work for, and belong somewhere like a newspaper, an office, and with other people that you can refer to as "colleagues"
If I sound wistful it is because I haven't felt that way in a long, long time.
I went to a fourth tier Law School, and struggled academically to graduate at the bottom of the class.
I found myself ill prepared for, and could not pass the Bar Exam, and I finally had to abandon the notion of ever working in law completely.
I now feel like a 2nd class citizen because of ruined credit, and no job prospects as a result of that ruined credit other than self employment. And no Health Insurance at age 45.
I defaulted on my Student Loans a couple of years ago, and now my loan is with the Federal Government (Direct Loans).
For now, the student loan madness is in remission, since I qualify for income based payments.
But the interest keeps accruing, and the deal is that after 25 years the loan will be "Abated" or forgiven, but I will owe income taxes on the abated principal amount, which will probably be half a million dollars by then.
Sure I might win the lottery, or find buried treasure. Who knows what can happen over 25 years?
But if I cannot pay the taxes on the forgiven loan at age 70, I guess I'll be put in jail by the IRS, along with a lot of other educated 60-70 year olds in the same boat. After all, that is what the IRS does when someone doesn't pay their taxes, isn't it?
My best advice to the majority of young people with a law degree seeking to put food on the table and survive at this point, is to completely remove the JD from the resume.
Make up some kind of story about what you were doing for the 3 or 4 years when you attended Law School.
In spite of what you may have heard in Law School, A JD does not enhance the resume in any way. It only makes you look like a misfit if you are seeking to work outside of Law.
It makes you overqualified for paralegal work.
It intimidates some employers. Makes others feel contempt, or concern that you will be advesarial by nature. (That's what one placement agency told me)
This is raw survival time. Put all of the bitterness aside. It will only distract you and eventually consume you.
From all that I have read, it seems like the Legal and Non-Legal educational system cannot sustain itself any more, and justice will come.
The madness will have to end one way or another.
TURN YOUR PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE INTO THE UNIVERSITY DEGREE YOU DESERVE.
ReplyDeleteAFFORDABLE ONLINE BACHELOR’S, MASTER’S & DOCTORATE DEGREES
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We should catch such people and ensure they spend the rest of their life behind bars;
ReplyDelete